Equipment , ethical question!

[Anonymous]

Recently, on the cliff of Sea Breeze , a party of German climbers (Hans and Jane Wenninger I suppose, but it need to be confirmed because it is an indication of one of my friends that ask with them ), put a new line between two of my routes ( Riko ans National day , 5b and 5b +, 30m), called Fountaglo (6a) name and grade written in yellow at the start) !

My two routes where separated by only three meters … and on the new route between mine … the news bolts can be clipped everywhere from one of my points!

The new route finish under an overhang without reason after 20m !!!!

Many friends advise me to remove the bolts and the belay … but a new war between France and Germany does not seem for me the best solution !

So I ‘m just posting this message on this forum to ask the question of ethics in the equipment !

A new route (even stupid) is not a major problem indeed !

We work for the community, or only to return home with a score in number of routes and meters bolted … to promote us? Only perhaps to have our name in the next topo? This is the question I think!

I am not perfect (but i am agreed for equipment by the French federation) and I have no property on the cliffs of Kalymnos, of course … but the many problems associated with uncontrolled equipment must ask ourselves , it seems !

We have simply to climb in the last routes of the bolting the event , to see that the bolts are well (inox) but the routes not cleaned, unstable stones not removed, and the holds not cleaned ! In front of this anarchy where quantity is more important than the quality … it may be wise to ask the question of the ethics in equipment of news routes!

For my own problem at Sea Breeze, everywhere in europe, it is writing in the topo that routes must be well separated … perhaps that in germany it is not the rule!

Sorry for my poor english

Bruno FARA

[Anonymous]

I haven’t seen the route yet but feel that there is enough rock on Kalymnos that there is no need to squeeze routes between existing climbs. It would be sad to end up with the situation that happens in some places and the cliffs become grid-bolted,

Chris

[Anonymous]

Comments about Brunos text:

Especially in the upper part of the new route you can’t clip the new bolts “everywhere” when you climb the neighbourroutes.

“Fountagio” is finished beneeth the roof because otherwise the rope will be damaged while going down. But maybe there’s place for a nice extension?

I think I find my name often enough in guidebooks – that´s not my motivation to develop new routes!

In my eyes “Fountagio” is in the lower part of the routes named the only one with a natural line, it’s nice climbing with many variations and very different from the neighbourroutes!

My thoughts:

On our first day this year on Kalymnos my wife Jeannette and me went to Seabreeze (the sector which we have developed since 2001!) and we were very surprised that our route “Hellas” was moved to the left – just as “Thalassopouli” to the right. And why? In order to get space in between for a new route named “Bleuet”?. I think this is much more problematic than the in somebody’s eyes “squeezed” routes.

But this fits to that what we have been told last year: New routes have to grant the expectations of the consumers and it is not allowed to establish the own standard. The result can only be that Kalymnos changes to the biggest and best outdoor climbing hall in the world: Routes near by near, all drilled with the same rules, no differences except the grade. It´s a development I don´t agree on in all points – but times are changing and we are only guests!

To understand me right: the new routes are all very nice climbs!! And therefore we thought that when we see a line worth climbing near to an existing route we should bolt it and we did.

The same problematic point we saw left of “Thia Fotisi” at “Belgian Chocolate”: bolts moved/line changed to bolt a new (squeezed?) line. Our new route “Goatfather” right of “Thia Fotisi” is once more the only line around which follows half way up a natural structure.

Another even bigger problem – in my eyes – is that many, many of the new routes are chipped. Some equippers form the rock to their expectations. I want to climb what the rock offers. Not more but also not less. But designing your own route fits to my ideas about the change to a big climbing hall.

I highly appreciate the discussion about climbing ethics and the mode of equipping – but who could be the one to judge? I think all of the equippers do there very best and we should appreciate and tolerate the work all of us are doing without payment. Why argue?

Hans and Jeannette

[Anonymous]

“In my eyes “Fountagio” is in the lower part of the routes named the only one with a natural line”

you believe your lies … or is it just a poor argument?

Somme links for your information!

http://climbkalymnos.com/climbing/#equiping

18. Please do not squeeze new routes very close to each other or tightly between already existing routes. As a rule, if two lines share handholds or footholds, or if you can top-rope a route by clipping into the lower-off of an adjoining route, then the two routes are too close to each other.

About the ethic of equipment … The sport climbing is not mountaineering and routes must be cleaned, blocks removed, earth removed in the cracks, plants and roots grubbed, holds hammered to be less sharp! This is not chipped holds … it is just a good job for the users of the routes! Because on kalymnos, routes are also a tourism support !

http://climbkalymnos.com/climbing/#equiping

10. A new route is not just about bolting and cleaning. When the rock is very sharp, you ought to take the time to smooth / blunt all the ultra-sharp edges off the holds and footholds with the gentle use of a hammer and/or wire brush. Otherwise climbers will sacrifice precious skin off their fingers and never climb your route again.

Dear Hans, freedom is not always to make just as we want … for exemple if I came in the elbsandstein, I don’t use chalk and I don’t put news routes with my drill!

Bruno FARA

[Anonymous]

Hi Bruno,

I don’t have made any lie. Shame that you write this.

Thank you for the links. I had never seen this, my fault

Who has made this rules by the way? And who agreed to it? They make sense – no question!

I wrote about chipping, not about smoothing sharp edges. What we saw was not a “gentle use of a hammer”. What we saw and what we mean is nr. 8!

Weather two lines share footholds or handholds belongs to the climber. When you follow the line of my bolts than you don’t share. Otherwise you can use hand- or footholds of another route in many sectors of Kaly if you want. We would loose a lot of excellent climbs, if that rule would be obeyed!

Elbsandstein is one of the climbing areas in the world where many of the locals but also foreign climbers say that there are too many strict rules. We shouldn´t compare Kaly with old traditional Elbsandstein!

To get me right: when we started bolting on Kaly 2001 there was nobody thinking of rules. My only rule was to bolt from bottom up. It was the aim to bolt nice climbs, develop fine sectors etc. I think a very good job has been done over the years – but of course with the number of (inexperienced) climbers coming the ethic had to be adapted. As e.g. I added extra bolts in many of my old routes due to more safety.

I realy don’t want to argue with you. May be we have a beer together in the sunset when we are back to Kayl!?

Hans

[Anonymous]

dear Hans,

Last informations, it seem that in some of your last route the bolts are now removed … (the route incrimined in sea breeze and a route at belgian chocolate).

It is not under my responsibility, but decided by local climbers!

For me I think your attitude is bad, that these routes are unnecessary … but I do not agree to remove the gear!

Perhaps a beer togeither if you want, i am only at Kaly during the spring now

Bruno FARA

[Anonymous]

It is nice to read aboyut ethics and bla bla bla and then even not have the braveness to tell who whose the author!! and you know it well

for sure it’is much better just to say it’s not me

Some local climbers is not enough (I’m amongst them) but for sure there is only one in kalymnos who thinks to have the right to decide if your route can survive or not

or if maybe it will be put a little bit far away to let all the scene for “une voie Majeur” of exactly the difficulties you want (with modern drill and a good set of drill you can work as “Michelangelo” and make your personal masterpiece in any hold you make then maybe you mask a little bit with you hammer everything or even just don’t mind if someone can realaze the trick

Now it seems even trendy to clean(!!!)place for your feet so you even don’t have to think to much what to do

it is enough just look at the marks made with the hammer

I’ m reallysorry for whats happens

I was really good friend with Claude but something start breaking when he bolted DixCorde (the name is meaningfull)moving aside a couple of bolt of THEIA FOTISI

Now he is probably kep going in the same direction against evrything and evryone but with no right to do that

Anyway now if you just think that there is something wrong in one route no problem chenge It

If you need any suggestion i have a long directory of pitch to be modified (included of course many of mine)

Where do we want tostart

Secret (Too squeezed) Nemo (too dirty and far away for the rescue) there are even a couple more far away but I can not tell you (still hidden to avoid teutonic visit)

I’m really sorry i spent the night thinking about the last faboluos ten year when we were happy and all friends and our thoughts were only climbing, bolting drinking beer or wine and having fun

Now things will be much different

Luca

[Anonymous]

For me it was not a good thing to remove the bolts, and i want only protest!

But i have not to named the author who has done this without my consent.If Hans want some information he have to contact the rescue service to contact Claude

I don’t agree this action … But I agree with the point 18 of the website http://climbkalymnos.com/climbing/#equiping

…. Please do not squeeze new routes very close to each other or tightly between already existing routes. As a rule, if two lines share handholds or footholds, or if you can top-rope a route by clipping into the lower-off of an adjoining route, then the two routes are too close to each other.

For me, some rules are a good thing!

[Anonymous]

Ciao bruno i was upset because you don’t tell claude’s name but you tell me or aris or claude or andree

the only part time resident climbers (local)

Then i’m fed up about rules no one is respecting those

what about the last three route where the belay are squeezed in 2 meter?

This was my second and i hope last post on this forum

good climbs to everyone have fun

[Anonymous]

Dear Bruno,

thank you for your last statement.

One addition: A natural line is for me there where you come up on the easiest way. Therefore I named it so.

My biggest problem the last two days was: Why do they measure the same thing with two different units? Or maybe clearer: Why do they condemn the one thing and tolerate the worse thing? The worse thing is in my eyes to change the lines of old routes only because someone wants to get more space for a new route. And than he marks his bolts with blue colour probably to mark the line, that the climber knows where to go and what to clip.

What is your opinion to this problem?

We have seen two of this problems in our few days on Kaly: “Bleuet” and the route left of “Thia Fotisi”. When you remember that we have only seen a very, very little selection of Kalyroutes you can imagine that there must be a lot more. Why is this tolerated?

Rules can be a good thing: When they are not too much and when they are not too strict. And of course they have to be accepted and obeyed by the majority and have to be the same rules for everybody. When the rules brake your imagination and squeeze you in a corset, they are not good. The most important thing for rules should be to make the security higher. And they must be practicable. For example I have nearly never seen a route where the first bolt is maximum 2,8 m high and the 2nd maximum 1,2 m higher up. And why: because that what the rock offers has a big influence.

Best regards

Hans

[Anonymous]

Dear Luca,

thank you for your honesty!

When it is right what you indicate, that Claude did the removing, than there must have happened a lot with Claude: We saw us at the beginning of our last Kalymnostrip (2 weeks ago) and he said to me, that he is always looking for new lines and that he knows very well how my attitude is. Last year he even called me “The mythological man”. That were his words not my opinion!

And some years ago, after Remy removed my route ”Merci Remy” (by the way with the same reason which is said now against some of my routes) first Aris bolted the upper part new and more left. And later on Claude rebolted my line. And now????

What has changed in the meantime?

Times are changing but in this way? Sad!!

Best regards Hans

[Anonymous]

Kali Mera Sas,

I didn’t want to be invovled in this discussion, but like Lucca said, I (oder better we, means Angie and me) we’ve been tired and upset about all the discussions and “rules of the locals” (who is this except Claude?), so we’ve decided not to continue bolting new routes. But if Claude really has changed routes from us, without asking us – than this is something I would call it the end of any discussions any more …

By the way, I’m wrighting this while sitting in a hospital waiting for my 5th operation on my leg – which was destroyed by falling out a route with a breaking hold (big als a childrens head) – a “well cleaned” (??) route of Bruno. I didn’t blame him yet, because it’s always the climbers fault when he is falling – but I think he shouldn’t blame others about cleaning …. Or the other way round: the best cleaning does not prevent from breaking rocks. This is nature. Or: climbing is not playing golfe! All efforts to make climbing totaly safe are in vain! The best way to make climbing save is to teach the people to be save resposable. And for us – no other rule really counts.

All the best

Christian

[Anonymous]

I’m laying in bed in hospital, so I have a lot of time of thinking about this and that – and at the end I’ve decided post again some considerations.

First, at my last post, at the end I made a mistake in writing – I wrote “save resposable” but I ment self responability.

Second. To Bruno. I know, that Hans doesn’t need a layer, but to presume him, “Only perhaps to have our name in the next topo?” – is incredible. Shame on you. Hans opend hundrets of routes in Norway (there he is a honorary citizan!), also in Meteora, in Argolis, in Krk and of course many routes in Germany. And he and Jeanette and friends were the first who discovered and named the sector “Seabreeze” and opend routes there. By lead – not top-rope! And long before you bolted your first route in Kalymnos. You should excuse yourself.

Third. I thought that Claude has been a friend of mine. He rescued me in october 2012 from Seabreeze. I was climbing and drilling together with him. And now?! Same feelings like Luca.

Fourthly. In the Beginning we felt invited and supported by the municipality and the local people to make new routes. The charme of the island for climbers has been, that many different people coming from different countries with different stiles – but all friendly and peaceful. I can’t feel this anymore. Because now it’s a (big??) business for some? Because some are afraid to loose – what? Because very few people believe that they know best whats good and whats bad? When Angie and me come to the island it’s not longer fun and harmonie – it’s fighting, jealousy and distrust. No “holiday” anymore.

Fith. Like I said before: different stiles and ethics. One likes only to open routes by lead or following natural lines – another the line of the falling waterdrop. We like blouming and smell and flowers in the routes – another totally clean, nothing that may disturb a climber. Some prefere more a “french” stile, like the sites in France (very clean, one line close to the next, very straight, often set up in one week oder weekend), some like it different, may be more developed from different climbers in a longer period (like many sites in Austria, Suisse and Germany). Sometimes some routes may be look like squeezed, some may be are – but the time will show, which route will be climbed the next years and which will be forgotten (and overgrown). This is a question of stile and I think we should tolerate this disparity. The other thing is a question of respect. To destroy routes or damage bolts of other climbers doesn’t show any respect. It’s the violent end of discussion.

Christian

[Anonymous]

Just a casual observer of this thread…

Just as a foreword, I’m by no means an experienced climber. Only really been climbing outdoors for the last 6 months.

I went to climb at Paradise beach in Palionosis. Lots of 6a’s and 6a+’s that I was excited to climb. What I was not excited about was that the first 5c(I forget the name, angelika i think?) I jumped on had holds breaking all over the place; it seemed like there was a very poor attempt at cleaning the route. We moved on to look for a 6a and we found that 2 of the routes had been removed. Either the wall is unsafe for climbing or there needs to be a better attempt at cleaning it. Furthermore, what didn’t make sense to me is that with the one climb we did that was falling apart and 2 other climbs removed, there were freshly bolted climbs on the wall from earlier that week.

Common sense suggests that new routes shouldn’t be put up on a wall where holds are falling off and older routes are being removed.

I was lucky that palionosis bay was just around the corner so the day wasn’t wasted, after the first climb and seeing that routes were being removed we decided to move on.

To end on a good note… that was the only crag, after a month in Kalymnos, I thought the bolter(s) used bad judgement. The rest of the climbing/bolting I experienced was phenomenal.

[Anonymous]

Oh Claude, what happened with you? I’m very sad.

Hans

[Author]

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