After the coldest, rainiest, windiest winter in recent memory, the weather in Kalymnos has done an about-face and now the sun shines bright and (too) warm. The season seems to start off with lots of climbers, Masouri is out of hibernation and a couple of new mini-markets and restaurants have popped up, though not much else has changed. But there’s also really good news on the rebolting front this year.
The good news is that funding for an official rebolting project has been approved and will be implemented in Kalymnos later this year. After many years of emergency route maintenance done by volunteers, this year funding through a proper EU program will be provided via a local contractor to use primarily towards route rebolting and additionally toward some new routing. Works will start in the summer and must be completed by the end of the year. Overseeing the project will be Aris Theodoropoulos alongside a team of other qualified, experienced equippers, including members of the Kalymnos Rescue Service.
For the record, the last official rebolting program was nearly five years ago, so to say it’s long overdue is an understatement. This year’s rebolting program is described in more detail below.
The specifics
The Kalymnos rebolting project comes with the following specifications:
• 2400 stainless-steel glue-in bolts (316L, 12mm) are to be used for rebolting existing routes
• 500 V-type anchors with two opposed carabiners are to replace older lower-offs
• 580 carabiners are to be placed on anchors without carabiners or used to replace worn carabiners
• 100 new routes are to be equipped using stainless-steel bolts (316L, 12mm) and V-type anchors with two opposed carabiners
• Some roadside crag markers/signposts will be added
• All parts of the rebolting/equipping program must be completed by the end of 2015.
Thinking long-term
No doubt this rebolting program is a very good thing for Kalymnos, but it will only help to rebolt about 10% of the total routes. And the fact is that funds for rebolting are almost non-existent. Now, more than ever, we must work for the longevity of Kalymnos; besides correcting the routes in need, future climbing development must be done the right way to ensure that Kalymnos remains one of the safest family climbing destinations in the world.
To this end, a collaboration is underway between the Greek Federation of Mountaineering and Climbing, the Hellenic Mountain Guides Association and Climb Kalymnos, to put together a set of official guidelines for equipping sport routes all over Greece. They will be largely based on these principles. The goal is to provide some structure and quality control, because when new routing is left completely unchecked, as it has been over the last few years, many new routes in Greece and Kalymnos end up poorly-protected or equipped with inappropriate materials which become corroded after a matter of months or a couple of years (i.e. homemade bolts, bolts with no certification or bolts by unreliable manufacturers, to name a few). Effective sometime next year, this set of guidelines will be proposed for all new sport routes in Greece. Perhaps not a perfect solution, but in the absence of funds and resources for rebolting it is a step in the right direction.
Starting with the Kalymnos rebolting project this year is something of a transition, the goal being to “tidy up” as many existing routes as possible and to slow down haphazard new routing. So if you were planning to equip new routes on Kalymnos this year, may we suggest that you put your new routes on hold and devote your time to checking your older routes instead. If their materials, bolting or cleaning need improvement, please correct them.
Not everybody will agree; but to those who do, we would like to say that everybody involved in route maintenance, rebolting and rescue on Kalymnos greatly appreciates your understanding and cooperation.
News
Route rebolting to begin in Kalymnos later this year
42 Comments
Hi Pawel,
No, unfortunately we do not know when the rebolting will be done yet. For the moment, the whole project is temporarily “frozen” due to the latest Greek crisis problems. We hope it can start from day to day. When the rebolting does start on “Wings” and “Wild Country” we will close all the south face of Telendos (including “Eterna”) and notify climbers well in advance.
Aris
Ok lads . Do any of you know when rebolting on wild country and wings for life will be done ? Any chance to climb one of them in September ? Is eterna safe to climb during revolting of wild and wings ?
Thanks
dear John … you write:
“I’ve come to realize you are an ignorant and obnoxious moron who should have no part to play in determining the future of climbing on Kalymnos, or anywhere.”
what anger, and why? Only because I say that your speech is not absolute truth
for my part, because you write “NONE of those links are “my” links” … I will stop the dialogue with a liar (I promise this is my last message to you) …
A liar … because the links I give are related to your name for the first,(clic on “John Byrnes” sends to climbcaymanbrac)
The second link (titanclimbing.com) is the link given at the bottom of the climbcaymanbrac page: (“Note 2104: at this time the titanium Eterna bolt can be purchased at Titan Climbing”) … the link sends to http://www.titanclimbing.com/
So after you may well say anything … you are no more credible than me to decide the Kalymnos equipment … And I continue to say that your messages are pro titanium lobby not only for safety at 100%
Stainless steel can be either be passive or active and this can occur within the same grade of stainless steel. It does not have to be solely confined to the more common situation of SS304 mixed with SS
316. Eg a 316 hanger combined with a 316 bolt. Differential oxidation can occur around the bolt / hanger interface where the hanger remains passive and the bolt, due to machining and work hardening, and therefore reduced corrosion resistance, may revert to its active state resulting in pitting of the bolt.
Bruno, NONE of those photos, that you call mine, are mine. NONE of those links are “my” links. Two are links to the UIAA, one to the British Mountain Club and one to Climbing magazine. If you think you know more than the UIAA, then perhaps you should offer your ‘expertise’ to them.
And I’ll say again, I have NO business connections to any titanium producers beyond being a customer.
I’ve come to realize you are an ignorant and obnoxious moron who should have no part to play in determining the future of climbing on Kalymnos, or anywhere.
I no longer try to persuade you … but I continue to assert that your links are not “the” evidence, and no more your assertions! Also that you have a business lobby approach about titanium and your terrifying pictures of broken bolts are also questionable
You are like the religious, convinced of your truth … good luck man!
“One final note mister Byrnes … and I leave you to your titanium religion
you do not answer the question (that exposes the problem of choosing between titanium and stainless steel)
If stainless steel is so bad that you claim … why metal parts on sailboats are stainless steel, not titanium ???? Strange !!!”
Bruno, with this question you prove that you have no understanding of the issue at all. In other words, you prove your ignorance. If you had read some of the links that have been posted here, you wouldn’t need to ask that question. It shouldn’t be a language barrier because this information is available in many languages. Or is it that you lack the mental ability to understand what you read?
THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS: Boats live in seawater. Bolts live in limestone. If you put stainless steel on a boat, either in or out of the water, it should be fine for the life of the boat. You put the same stainless steel in a hole in limestone and wait 10 years, it will crack (as has been observed world-wide).
One final note mister Byrnes … and I leave you to your titanium religion
you do not answer the question (that exposes the problem of choosing between titanium and stainless steel)
If stainless steel is so bad that you claim … why metal parts on sailboats are stainless steel, not titanium ???? Strange !!!!
“It was already explain that this web site is only a publicity for the titane business … And that some photos where a fake !
Please, put titane on the rock if you want but stop this lobby ! Titane is à good solution but not the only one, even in sea environment inox is also perfect if you put the good inox”
Bruno, you are an ignorant, slandering liar. You have no background or qualifications to be saying the things you are saying. If you want to accuse Martin of faking a photo, provide proof or shut up.
The UIAA, the BMC and many other credible organizations have published proof that Stainless bolts are not appropriate in seaside limestone. You have NO PROOF, just ignorance. SO PLEASE SHUT UP and let the grown-ups talk.
http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/Bolt_failures_on_Sea_Cliffs.pdf
http://theuiaa.org/news-865–Safety-Commission-issues-update-of-corrosion-notice-for-anchors-in-marine-locations-.html
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/uiaa-issue-anchor-corrosion-warning
http://www.climbing.com/climber/built-to-last/
It was already explain that this web site is only a publicity for the titane business … And that some photos where a fake !
Please, put titane on the rock if you want but stop this lobby ! Titane is à good solution but not the only one, even in sea environment inox is also perfect if you put the good inox
I think too, that titanium bolts will make much more sense in the long run in such a corrosive environment, being close to the sea
Check this out:
http://www.titanclimbing.com/why.html
@ Joshua: There is no interest to me to promote anything that it’s not working properly, because, as I wrote before, I am a climber and a bolt seller, but mainly a climber; there is a real chance that I get a whipper on a a bad bolt, so I am more concerned about safety rather than selling.
Marine: as far concerning my investigations, that can be wrong, there is a “bit of confusion” going on about the term “Marine”.
Example: “Marine” from a spanish supplier is 1,4404 (316L). “Marina” from an Italian supplier is 1,4404 with particular treatment, which according to them, will increase durability. The word “Marine” from me does not exist, but I sell 1,4404, which the Spanish supplier will sell and market it as “Marine”. What I told to Toni, and what I told to the people living in Kalymnos to shom I spoke with, and what I wrote before in this topic, is that there is no permanent solution in marine conditions. The bolts can stay in place, but resin might give up OR a whole piece of rock collapse in your face. What I am suggesting to anybody ask me what “I would do” is simple:
– Bolt with 1,4529 expansion bolts. M10. These should last +25 years anywhere. No chemicals/ glue ins.
– use hangers and belays in A4 (there is not real difference between 316 and 316L except hype), with stamped year or production/equipment, to be replaced/inspected each 10 years.
– Each 10 years, inspect the whole route for safety /rock).
I do not suggest 12 mm bolts, I have a few photos in my forum and I have explained (in Italian), why at the present stage using M12 bolts is a bad idea. Evidence of +25 years of falling, suggest me I am damn right.
http://kinobi.forumup.it/about332-kinobi.html
Finally, I have expressed to the people that probably will rebolt Kalymnos with EU funds, that using 316L glue ins (chemicals) is a bad idea, but this is what was in the specs done according by a burocrat in Brussels (which was clearly tipped for specification by somebody).
Ciao,
E
There was 3 tipes of stainless bolts for those who dont know the diferences betwen them.
A2 AISI 304. Cheaper. You can not use it in marine environment. Because in 4 year it gets corrosion.
A4 AISI 316L . A little more expensive and better. But not advisable for marine environment because it gets corrosión too, but it toke about 6 o 10 years.
And Marine grade A4-AISI 316L stainless steel. the only advisable in marine environment.
Tipes of corrosion in stainless.Fretting.crevice corrosion.Erosion corrosion.Intergranular corrosion.Corrosion Fatigue.Stress corrosion cracking.pitting corrosion.galvanic and others. I recommend you read the raumer catalog.
http://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_mlista.asp?mcat=climbing&cat=stainless_steel_bolts&qi=4-2-0
They specifically recommend use Titanium bolts in marine eviromental but due its cost is not woth it.
So the best solution is chemical A4-AISI 316L Marine grade anchors.
Say hello to Toni Bonet.
Emanuel. If you know Ibiza, then you have to know what happens there. Some Stainless bolts A4 have break down in the egagropilas cave, and in other spots after replace the older bolts. When we removed them again, they break down only whith one hit of the hammer because the inside whas full of corrosion due the galvanic current between the components. Is because of the bubbles inside the stainless.
What I tell you is that. Easy to understand. In stainlees A4 chiemical anchors the corrosion from the inside you dont get it. because there is not galvanic currents. But in the bolts yes, it occurs. and the corrosion appears from the inside.
@ Joshua: I do not understand what you have been trying to explain me. But it’s not a major issue. I feel there is not significant difference (either way) between the SAME material chemical or bolt, if placed in the same spot. Your first comment stated that there is difference. I know issues in Ibiza very well, I am a friend of Toni B.
Only honesty and transparency here Bruno :-) …
…John has been a strong ‘believer’ in Titanium bolts from before I started clipping them in Thailand about 12 years ago. I’ve been producing for about 6 years. We have never met, he has bought my bolts a couple of times and he likes them very much.
We keep in touch by email but what I definitely DO NOT do is email him with suggestions of what to post and where on my behalf if that’s what you’re asking.
There’s no conspiracy here Bruno, just individuals voicing their own opinions with an increasing awareness of superior equipment and materials
DISCLAIMER – For those that don’t know me or what we do, I am a Titanium bolt and anchor manufacturer
Martin … it was already understood by reading you :-) … and John is your friend?
bolt inox 12mm: http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr/terre/camping-et-randonnee/materiel-de-montagne-d-escalade-et-de-grimpe/marteau-et-amarrage/cheville-a-expansion/double-expansion-12.html
3,80€ … hey john …i’s not 19$ … even with a plaquette (about 1€ for a Kinobi inox!)!
“Now there is a 200mm diameter area where a bolt cannot be placed due to weakness of rock/proximity of holes.”
Can´t say transferring a rule governing the reduction of strength of two loaded bolts placed near each other due to the overlapping cones of failure to a case where only one bolt can ever be loaded is particularly correct, I´ll write up the tests one day.
Emanuel I think you’re an expert reader. I do not. I refer to what I see on the walls. I’m telling you I ‘ve been using for over 20 years parabolts and chemicals in marine environments. And I’ve seen some of them get corrosion until disappear. If the epoxy resin is not good quality UV rays gnashing them, and the chemical gets out entirely. But if the epoxi is of good quality it endure over time without deterioration. Also, if the steel is cast, micro bubbles remaining inside the stainless, make the parabolt splitting from the inside. Even marine steel A4. We have broken some Stainless bolts during falls on the island of Ibiza, with less than 10 years. I do not care what says UIAA . I know what I see and what I ‘ve tried. And I see that Stainless parabolts get corrosion inside and just breaking after falls . “Galvanic happens ONLY if you mix materials” What you says here is not true. Galvanic corrents happens always betwen diferent componens. But if you mix materials it goes faster.
John Byrnes:
That’s the price for the glue in bolt made of 6mm rod in 316SS
“’Instead of everyone spewing their opinions about cost, lets put some pricing here.’”
“80mm Eterna Bolt €9.40. 80mm Bolt Products 316L bolt with bolt fund discount €2.79”
And how much for the hanger?
Titan Climbing also give discounts of 10% to 20% depending upon order size.
DISCLAIMER – For those that don’t know me or what we do, I am a Titanium bolt and anchor manufacturer.
There are many other factors to consider when looking at the REAL cost of installing new bolts and replacing failing/failed bolts.
FIRSTLY – There’s the resin, drills and batteries, drill bits, angle grinders and batteries, grinder discs, core drills, hammer, brushes, blow out pumps, various access equipment, various safety equipment… The list goes on and on and all of that has to be bought and replaced as it wears out over time and use… and that’s just the MATERIAL costs.
When a bolt is core-drilled out then a larger, more expensive bolt needs to be put in the larger hole. Then what happens when this larger bolt becomes unsafe? Another, even bigger hole and an even bigger bolt?
SECONDLY – There’s also a considerable amount of time and expertise required to carry out the work, especially when removing bolts properly and not just leaving rusting remains of previous bolting and re-bolting efforts splattered over our non renewable rock. Fundraising and communicating to land owners and local authorities all takes time and effort.
Sometimes this labour is voluntary and sometimes at considerable cost.
THIRDLY – There’s the environmental impact. All the re-bolting I have witnessed in over 20 years has not been ‘core-drilled’. Instead, more often than not, the nut is removed from the hanger and the remaining stud is hammered in to the hole flush with the rock if the original installer drilled the hole deep enough, if not then the stud remains sticking out from the rock. This is sometimes left as it is, hammered over, hammered back and forth to snap it off or more rarely, ground off with the remaining rusting stud left in the rock. If it is a glue in bolt then skip the ‘remove nut’ stage and move on to hammering/grinding.
Now there is a 200mm diameter area where a bolt cannot be placed due to weakness of rock/proximity of holes. The first bolt was most likely placed in the ideal position for clipping, this is especially important for ‘crux’ bolts. Crux bolts experience the most falls and statistically are more likely to need replacing earlier. Badly placed crux bolts are at the least annoying and at the most, unnecessarily risky or dangerous.
This practice of replacing and replacing, time and time again is clearly not sustainable.
Once these stainless steel bolts have become unsafe again, all this expense of materials, time, fund-raising and organisation has to be carried out yet again.
Remember – sport climbing has only been around for a few decades and is becoming increasingly popular. Climbing on Kalymnos is only about 15 years old (correct me if I’m wrong) and rebolting has been going on for many years already.
UIAA are drawing up legislation to help ensure that bolts should last at least 50 years in particular environments.
Personally I’m aiming for resistance to corrosion of over 100 years and I believe this is achievable with Titanium and epoxy resin. Ramset Epcon C8 in their words “Independently tested and assessed for 100 year design life under sustained loading”
http://www.ramset.co.nz/Product/Detail/315/Epcon-C8-EXTREME
Science dictates that the corrosion resistance of titanium is many times greater than 304 and 316 stainless but I know that Titanium is not required everywhere.
There’s no doubt that it’s the longest lasting option available and is the ideal solution for coastal climbing areas including a number of kilometres inland.
I want to make it VERY clear that Kalymnos is amongst my favourite climbing destinations in Europe and I only wish for the very best equipment and respect that it deserves
“Instead of everyone spewing their opinions about cost, lets put some pricing here.”
80mm Eterna Bolt €9.40. 80mm Bolt Products 316L bolt with bolt fund discount €2.79
First of all, I do not make any money from Ti bolts and never have. It is NOT my job. Furthermore, the Thaitanium Project does NOT make money selling Ti bolts either. Bruno, you need to stop this slander.
Instead of everyone spewing their opinions about cost, lets put some pricing here. Final prices will be lower with high volumes but the relative prices will stay roughly the same.
I’m using U.S. prices to be consistent. If someone would post local prices in Euros, that would be great.
An Eterna titanium bolt is $12.50, add $2.00 for the glue and you get $14.50. A Fixe 316 bolt and hanger is $19.00.
http://www.titanclimbing.com
http://www.fixehardware.com/shop/anchors/fixe-ss-12x90mm-marine-wedge-bolt/
http://www.fixehardware.com/shop/hangers/fixe-ss-12mm-bolt-hanger-marine-grade/
So where does all this crap about “four times the price” come from?
We know stainless bolts in the Mediterranean last about 10 years. Choosing to rebolt with stainless today also means choosing to have an on-going, NEVER-ENDING rebolting process. Doesn’t anyone remember Sisyphus?
Thanks John … You make a hard lobby for your job :-)
I don’t agree that titanium is the same price that inos … And neither more uour argumentation!
Explain why in marin environnement (hearbour or boats) the titanium is not the rule!
For me good inox (316 L or Ti) is the right solution and the bolts also because for rebolting (and for all the gear, even titanium, you habe to change one day !!!) a bolt is easy to pull inside the hole!
When Sport Climbing started back in the ’80s, all manners of bolts were used, many of which were too weak to hold multiple falls and most of which would rust or have galvanic corrosion in a few years. This was a clear and present danger to all climbers.
Afterwards came a period of time I’m calling the Stainless Era. Stainless steel quickly became the defacto standard because it was clearly far better than what we had. Stainless steel bolts, both expansion type and glue-ins, quickly populated cliffs throughout the world and the popularity of Sport Climbing skyrocketed.
Stainless bolts, made almost exclusively of “Series 300” stainless steel, solved the problems of strength, rust and galvanic corrosion. At the time, no one suspected we had only removed another layer of the onion. Few climbers had ever heard of Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) and no one believed it could happen to a climbing bolt.
In the early 2000’s P. Muraleedharan, a professional metallurgist, wrote that the occurrence of Stress Corrosion Cracking (SCC) in austenitic stainless steels (Series 300) in ambient conditions “depends on the patience of the observer.” In other words, all you need to do is wait and SCC will occur. This was a huge divergence from previous metallurgical doctrine which stated that SCC could never happen in temperatures under 80C (176F).
Few metallurgists believed him until 2008 when Angele Sjong published her analysis of a 316 bolt hanger in a peer-reviewed article in the ASTM Journal of Failure Analysis. Of course by this time climbers in Thailand and Cayman Brac had been dealing with breaking stainless bolts for a decade and broken stainless steel bolts and hangers were being reported all over the world.
No matter if the cliff is marine or inland, tropical or temperate, rainy or moderate rain, of sandstone, limestone or basalt, stainless bolts and hangers are breaking. They have broken in Thailand in as little as 9 months. In Kalymnos, about 9 years. Muraleedharan was right.
The UIAA’s upcoming corrosion guidelines will NOT approve Series 300 stainless bolts for most outdoor environments. The goal of the guidelines is that bolts should be safe for at least 50 years and in many places should far exceed that.
The rate at which SCC proceeds in stainless climbing bolts is determined by four accelerants:
1) Higher temperatures accelerate corrosion.
2) Rainwater dissolves rock creating ions and the ions are carried to the bolts in the runoff either over the surface or by percolating through the rock (limestone & sandstone). The runoff wicks into the crevices behind bolt hangers and into bolt holes due to the capillary effect.
As the water evaporates, the ions re-combine into new compounds, which are concentrated by the “crevice effect”. After each cycle of rain/dry, these corrosive agents becomes more concentrated.
The bad ones are Magnesium Chloride, MgCl2, and Calcium Chloride, CaCl2, which are highly corrosive and trigger SCC.
3) Carbonic Acid from rotting vegetation accelerates the dissolution of rock by rainwater, thus increasing the number of ions in the runoff. It also acts as a catalyst for corrosion when deposited on the bolts by rain runoff.
4) Seawater has a high concentration of dissolved Cl, the other half of MgCl2 and CaCl2. Thus sea cliffs develop SCC most rapidly but it’s wrong to think that seawater is necessary for SCC and that inland areas are safe. SCC has been found far inland in Cuba, Taiwan and Okinawa. In Cuba, for example, the cliffs are 26 miles (43km) from the sea.
The above factors explain things like why tropical areas are worse than temperate areas; why sea cliffs are worse than inland cliffs; why glue-ins (no crevices) last longer than expansion bolts; why the bolts at the bottom of the cliff are worse (the runoff has longer to collect ions and unfortunately low bolts also see the highest fall factors), why limestone is worse than granite, and why no one’s yet seen SCC in alpine (too cold) or desert (too dry) environments.
If you look at climbing forums world-wide over the last 5 years, replacing corroding stainless steel bolts is a very hot topic. And if we don’t change our ways, it will continue to be a very hot topic. We need to get out of the rebolt mind-set, and get into the bolt-it-once mind-set.
The bottom line is that anyone who replaces a corroded stainless steel bolt with another stainless steel bolt is wasting their time and money, and creating a future hazard for other climbers. The new bolt will soon corrode as well, and a few years down the road someone else will spend more money and more time and drill more holes to replace it.
Currently, titanium bolts are the only certified bolts proven to be SCC resistant, and are the same price (or less!) than a similar stainless bolt.
I am also excited that systematic re-bolting is under way. But, moreover, I hope that the “long-term” aspects mentioned by ClimbKalymnos will be pursued with similar vigour. Climbing Areas like Kalymnos need Standards and “quality control in order to slow down haphazard new Routing”.
@Joshua: you are making a bit of confusion.
I suggest you to go to the web site of UIAA.org. You are going to see glue ins “broken” that were both welded, and forged. For some times, it was thought that the glue was protecting the metal, but in reality, it’s not.
A bolt is made of 5 parts: rod, spacer, expansion, nut and hanger. I save you most of facts, but I take the liberty to inform you that the “weaker” part is the one attached the most by what we call “corrosion”. The weaker (smaller mass) is the spacer, which is useless in strenght. Sure, in bolts there are other things that might accelerate “problems”, but there is no evidence that at chemical is better than a bolt concerning corrosion (as long as you use correct bolts). Bolts are “pulled”, while chemicals are bent (same thing), so there is (almost) no difference. Galvanic happens ONLY if you mix materials, a thing you should not, or, as I said before, it attachs the smaller mass of the same material. Unfortunately in a glue in, the only part that can be attached, is the rod (bearing material). Finally, on the web you can find a lot of manuals on welding, and it’s interesting to read them. You might be surprised in what you read. My “two cents” are that probably a bolt is more resistant to corrosion that a Glue in (if they are both made with the same material), manly because there are smaller parts than the rod (only part of the chemical) to “absorb” corrosion.
Maybe combining both options is the best solution and only use titanium at specific crags and routes or single bolts that saw increased corrosion…..
Hello.
I live in Mallorca and I have expereance in bolt replacement here. The 316L bolt is not the best solucion for sea environment.I used and due to the galvanic current between components, the corrosion accelerates. And at the end the bolts do not last more than 10 years. Rebolting with this material is not the best way to doit. But the 316L chemical anchors dont have this galvanic currents, because is made in one piece. So in this way the chemical anchors last more than 50 years. And is the best solution for the future.
the titanium project lobby is not objective because they want to sell their equipment and therefore tries to persuade the world that it is the only solution … 316L is enough for safety and a lot cheaper! Not good reason to use tatanium everywhere!
Titanium vs Stainless.
Titanium has some/many advantages. But it cost about 4 times more than Stainless and it has the issue with glue.
Most recent accidents that I am aware of (San Vito Lo capo (I), Val Daone (I), Valeria (E)) had issues related to the rock, not the bolts: the all piece of rock came out. Do you need photos?
This makes you think…
In an ideal world (safety of working places), you need to inspect gear and concrete/steel every given time. Everybody does it.
In an ideal climbing world you need to inspect gear and rock every a given time. Nobody does it.
My two cents is that Titanium is better, but had I to choose, I will take Stainless and inspected (rock and gear) every 10 years for the next 30 years, at the price of one single “forever” bolting with Titanium but with no future inspection of the place. Inspection means you check rock, replace worn carabiners, etc…
Said so, all the issues that I am aware of 304 (A2) and 316 (A4) in most parts of Europe are very difficult to compare with what is happening/happened in Thailand. Nobody says there are no issues in Europe, but I think the scale of the problem, needs to be considered and here is significantly way less problematic.
There are some parts of Kalymnos/Telendos that might have issues like in Thailand, but big majority, they have not. Climbing in Kalymnos, I am more afraid that with wind I get a rock in may face, or a belay pulls out attached to the rock, rather than a bolt breaks
Best,
E
PS: Climber, Equipper (+2500 bolts placed) and Bolt (stainless) producer.
i think that the “lobby” of the titanium project must also ask the question, why everywhere (except Krabi) inox (good inox 316L or better 316Ti, is only utilised (and with succes) ? And answer to the question why the hulls of boats are stainless steel, not titanium … also why the big factories like Petzl use Inox and not titane?
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/12mm-titanium-bolts/108857150
http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan%20Climbing%20products%20-%20Titanium%20staple%20U%20bolts.html
here are the links…..
bruno read this article about glue ins and check also prices from the thaitanium project and by this producer thaihttp://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan%20Climbing%20products%20-%20Titanium%20staple%20U%20bolts.html
and i m sure the cost if we also put the total longevity of the bolts in the equation will be even less than the 316….
in my opinion a test of using both materials in the same high corrosion environment in 2 routes next to each other will give the answer….
i remember some really corroded bolts on the sector pescatore at telendos where the routes are in a really extreme environment in terms of corrosion….
TITANIUM BOLTS!!! … Why use Expensive titanium … use good inos (316L) is the best solution; the inos boats are not in titanium … and never hey has problems!
i totally agree with the previous comments….
Why use stainless steel and don t go for the best option that is best suited for places near the sea….
The cost of course is much bigger but anyway with the current plan only a part of the routes will be maintained ,why don t spread the cost by starting a 5 years or long term project with titanium and by giving the chance to all the climbers that visit kalymnos to contribute to the project through a voluntary or even mandatory donation of min the cost of placing 1 titanium bolt and up to as many as somebody might want…
Another question is who the producer of the bolts will be if it is already decided and of course if he can provide titanium bolts
Thinking long term and creating the conditions to get help by the climbing community to keep kalymnos not only safe but self-“sufficient” and not only depended by goverment or eu funds in my opinion is the best solution
We just returned from Kalymnos and were impressed with how safely the routes were bolted for the most part, and are glad to hear that rusted bolts are going to be replaced. We would also be willing to make a contribution to a bolting/re-bolting fund. Also, although the guide book clearly addresses it, maybe some additional signage regarding garbage and human waste at the crags would be helpful. Who just leaves toilet paper under a rock? Disgusting.
TITANIUM BOLTS!!!
Why are they using stainless steel? Please research the titanium project in Thailand and don’t waste thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours placing stainless steel anchors/bolts that will FAIL AGAIN in only a few years. TITANIUM ANCHORS/BOLTS SHOULD BE THE ONLY CHOICE FOR CLIMBING AREAS IN THIS TYPE OF ENVIROMENT!
Why don’t you offer a voluntary climbing card which includes a contribution to the rebolting project as well as the mountain rescue team. Therefore climbers get a printed version of the latest route updates, infos regarding the rescue team, discounts in climbing shops/moto rentals or maybe a free ride to Telendos…
Best Regards,
ralph
I think there should be a way to collect money from all the climbers who come to Kalymnos by a voluntary fee, paid at the place of accommodation or another apt place and passed on to the ones responsible for the rebolting! I would be very willing to contribute my share to make this climbers paradise be a safe place and last for a long time.
regards from Switzerland